SV UU Metagame Discussion - Teal Mask Edition

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The raw damage to get kills on stuff like Torn instead of just taking away its boots is a big deal IMO, as is the fact that it hits Gus when it inevitably returns. Obviously not a straight upgrade but seems like a great addition to its tool kit, especially on choiced sets.
Choice Band Knock Off already dent to an extreme extent Heavy-Duty Boots Tornadus-T :
• 252 Atk Choice Band Meowscarada Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 255-300 (85.2 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

You just need some minor chip damages to ensure the OHKO on Choice Band variants of Meowscarada which is, on paper, the only set where you could fit Triple Axel. Pivot sets with Heavy-Duty Boots will most of the time opt for others options.

On the other hand, most of Tornadus-T variants with bulk are paired with Assault Vest which means it takes Stealth Rock damages :
• 252 Atk Choice Band Meowscarada Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 255-300 (72.6 - 85.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 Atk Choice Band Meowscarada Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 255-300 (70.6 - 83.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Looks like a fool's trap to me.
Loaded Dice Triple Axel always hits the max 3 times if the first hit lands
Loaded Dice is a dogshit item on Meowscarada.
 
It works the same as population bomb, it checks accuracy each turn.
Loaded dice shouldn't work.
However, you can use wide lens.
Loaded Dice works with both, for Triple Axel and Triple Kick you only need to pass first Acc check to hit 3 times. For Population Bomb you need to pass initial check and will hit between 4 and 10 times.

You can check the link to learn more
https://www.reddit.com/r/stunfisk/comments/yzascv
 
Now that showdown is live, I may as well put all of my thoughts in one place

Pain Split- :gengar: :rotom-wash: :rotom-heat: :mew: :overqwil: :zoroark-hisui::moltres-galar:

Double Edge- :azumarill: :crawdaunt: :infernape: :iron leaves: :kleavor: :salamence: :scizor: :ursaluna: :haxorus: :lycanroc-dusk: :pawmot: :slither wing:

Temper Flare- :salamence: :gyarados:

Whirlpool- :azumarill: :empoleon: :gastrodon: :pelipper: :slowking: :milotic: :quagsire: :slowbro:

Supercell Slam- :iron treads: :ursaluna: :iron thorns: :pawmot:

Triple Axel- :meowscarada: :quaquaval: :weavile: :lilligant-hisui: :mienshao:

Sludge Wave- :gengar:

Scorching Sands- :infernape: :sandy shocks: :volcanion: :mew: :armarouge: :hippowdon: :torkoal:

Future Sight- :hoopa-unbound: :azelf: :gardevoir:

Expanding Force- :indeedee: :hoopa-unbound: :azelf:

Meteor Beam- :jirachi: :mew: :armarouge: :iron jugulis:

Throat Chop- :iron leaves: :weavile: :meowscarada:

Breaking Swipe- :cyclizar: :milotic:

Curse- :scizor:

Psychic Noise- :gengar: :hoopa-unbound: :jirachi: :slowking: :mew: :gardevoir: :munkidori: :slowbro:

Upper hand- :quaquaval: :lilligant-hisui:

Some of these are pretty niche, but compared to last dlc, there are a lot of ok moves instead of a few extremely impactful ones.

:weavile: :quaquaval: :meowscarada:
The three horsemen of the apocalypse, already strong offensive threats getting the incredible triple axel, but I think they might be a bit overhyped. Weavile is the most absurd of the three imo. Axel makes it even more unwallable after an sd, notably having a 15/16 chance to ohko offensive treads after a boost. As for the other two, axel on quaq means losing the utility of knock and getting walled by slowking, which is very annoying. Quaq also gets upper hand for priority, but that means running no coverage or dropping cc. For meow, axel doesn't really hit anything that knock and play rough already beat. The ohko on torn and neutral coverage for geezing are nice, but it's still competing with some solid options and I don't think it pushes it over the edge.

:rotom-wash: :rotom-heat:
The rotoms finally have some form of recovery, even if it's the unreliable pain split. Wash not being deathly afraid of knock is a game changer, and heattom might see a resurgance with pain split on np sets.

:salamence: :gyarados:
Temper flare is an interesting option, but it's hard to justify over eq on mence unless you really hate orthworm. It's useful for gyara to hit grasses without tera, but it means getting stonewalled by waters or dropping sub or taunt for the coverage. That being said, fire coverage could be much more valuable next month if/when we get skarm.

:sandy shocks:
STAB scorching sands on an already threatening pokemon is pretty scary. While there aren't many physical attackers that would pivot into it, the burn chip on sinis and gastro seems valuable. That being said, the drop in immediate power is noticeable, so it's not a strict upgrade.

:azumarill:
Whirlpool is back for the slightly gimmicky perishtrap sets. Compared to last gen, where you could usually lure in the grasses consistently, most players this gen usually force as much damage as possible to prevent belly drum, so there's some potential for interesting plays there. That being said, this set is a gimmick for a reason, and it relies heavily on surprise factor, but maybe it could put in work.

:indeedee: :hoopa-unbound: :munkidori: :gardevoir:
Offensive psychics get some major buffs. Expanding force gives psyspam some new toys to play with, while psychic noise greatly limits defensive checks. These pokemon still have their flaws, but they might see some more usage with these tools

:armarouge: :iron jugulis:
Meteor beam is fun, but idk if it's worth the item slot. Dropping sash or wp on armarouge makes it much easier to prevent it's setup, and jugulis wants booster speed to maximize it's threat potential. There's some potential for fun sets, but idk if ti'll be consistent.

It's still early for me so there's a good chance I missed something, but I'm looking forward to seeing how these moves impact the meta
 
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I don't have too much motivation to ladder that much right now and will probably be waiting for the drops in January but I did build something new and play a good amount of games to at least get a feel of the new move additions.


I think the biggest buff is Pain Split being added back for Washtom. While it isn't a completely reliable recovery option, it adds a lot more staying power. The biggest one is probably Tornadus-T because you would just get hit with Knock Off and proceed to be worn down by rocks + U-turn till it died. It also opens up the option to run Rocky Helmet more easily, which can at least let you punish Gapdos, Azu, Barra, and the newly added Triple Axel Weavile. Most of these do carry Knock Off but I feel like my point still stands.


Jirachi @ Power Herb
Ability: Serene Grace
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Meteor Beam
- Psychic
- Aura Sphere
- Energy Ball

I believe this was a set last-gen or something close to it. Either way, Meteor Beam is a neat readdition to Jirachi making special sets a little more flexible outside of relying on Calm Mind. Meteor Beam lets you nuke a lot of things like Moltres, Volcanion, Goltres, and with minor chip Mandibuzz. This can help open up windows for other partners to sweep more easily. Energy Ball seemed decent as a last for Slowking and Gastrodon mostly but I could see it being rather flexible.


Triple Axel I think is only really a big buff for Weavile but it can also be exploitable by Rocky Helmet on Pokemon like Washer, Quaq, etc. though it has Knock Off to offset this a bit. Moltres is also an option people can consider to potentially punish Weavile. I don't know if this makes Weavile broken now, I don't have a large enough sample size, but it felt fine enough to me. The nicest thing I found was potentially revenging Hydreigon behind Substitute.


I spoke about Meow on Discord but I don't think Axel is massive for it. It's nice coverage but it doesn't need to run it to beat anything in particular. It can struggle to even fit outside of CB imo. I've seen some of the calcs but I don't believe it makes Meow close to ban-worthy. I still believe its best set is just Boots Spikes. I think shifts could potentially make Axel more appealing on it.


As for the duck Axel on it does not matter. It could already break with Ice Spinner if it needed that coverage, but it rarely ran it because Knock Off is just more valuable for breaking Slowking while still dealing with Sinistcha + punishing Azu and Volc. Once again it is an upgrade but it doesn't fundamentally change anything about it.

Dumping these two teams here
/

https://pokepast.es/ad5971ec51709a2f
https://pokepast.es/f5119dc1fd918519

Used this the most on ladder to great success. It's just a fairly basic hazard stack premise that aims to wear stuff down for Meow, Scizor, or the BU cleaner to win. I used Ursaluna originally and the Pokemon was fine but I think Okidogi is more valuable defensively.


https://pokepast.es/25e27acb817f2241

If people want to try Meteor Beam Jirachi this is the team I made. Sinistcha loves Jirachi being able to lure in and remove Mandi and Moltres, etc. so I built around this premise.
 
1702825148485.png
This Guy is not in the tier right now and it might or might not drop in January. However I am excited for it so I want to talk about it.

Skeledirge has gotten a few new toys in the DLC Temper Flame, Scortching Sands and Alluring Voice. The first one is irrelevant. Scortching Sands also seems irrelevant with a very noticable drop off in power compared to Earth Power while having 30% Burn chance. Maybe it has a place in a meta where you are extremely starved for Move Slots and really need both Burn and Ground coverage but I don't see it.

Now for the real meat: Alluring Voice. For those unaware Alluring Voice is a new Fairy type sound move, it has 80BP and a secondary effect of confusing the target if they received a stat boost before getting hit. Which is a great move for Dirge! Fairy coverage lets it hit Dark, Fighting and Dragon types which Dirge sometimes struggled hitting to the point of some people Teching Tera Fairy Tera Blast. Alluring Voice for the most part is a Fairy Tera Blast since nothing is going to boost in front of an Unaware Mon. Except now you don't have to use Tera.

So against which Mons the new move would be relevant:
1702842332209.png the most obvious one since it was often the reason for Fairy Tera Blast. 248 hp 244 spdef Dirge can always live even a Tera Dark Feiry Wrath. At no SpA investement Alluring Voice without Tera doesn't hit that hard 31,7%-38%, however post Tera or with Torch Song boost you are already threatning a 2HKO on it. Torch Song into Tera Fairy +1 Alluring Voice threatens a KO while completely skipping a Sitrus Berry.

1702842966849.png
another mon that stands out. Dirge really struggled putting a dent in Hydrei as it resists both it's STABs and is immune to Earth Power, Hydrei being a special attacker doesn't fear Burn much. Now with Alluring Voice Dirge threatens a 75% OHKO after Stealth Rock even if Hydrei is behind a substitute. It is a match up that forces a lot of mindgames from both sides since Hydreigon is weak to Alluring Voice but Dirge is weak to Dark Pulse. Both having a Tera that resists the respective move but at the same times makes them weak to another move in Torch Song for Steel Hydrei and Flash Canon for Fairy Dirge.

1702843280449.png
this guy is completely stone walled by Alluring Voice Dirge. Quaqaval is the only mon that is going to boost in front of Dirge since Aqua Step does it. You can try to get around it by pressing Knock into Step but if Dirge Teras it now resists both Knock and CC while being neutral to Aqua Step and confusing you if you press it.

Now it is impossible to tell if Skeledirge even will drop to UU to begin with given how it took a while at first and it's one of the most reliable Unaware Mon and right now OU is an HO and Dragon City. Speaking of which Alluring Voice let's Dirge hit Hydrapple, Raging Bolt, Walking Wake among others there. I find the very fact that Dirge now has access to a reliable Fairy coverage to be exciting and if it does end up hypothetically dropping it would change things for a few mons.
 

ThatOneApple

A Bit Fruity
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View attachment 580980
This Guy is not in the tier right now and it might or might not drop in January. However I am excited for it so I want to talk about it.

Skeledirge has gotten a few new toys in the DLC Temper Flame, Scortching Sands and Alluring Voice. The first one is irrelevant. Scortching Sands also seems irrelevant with a very noticable drop off in power compared to Earth Power while having 30% Burn chance. Maybe it has a place in a meta where you are extremely starved for Move Slots and really need both Burn and Ground coverage but I don't see it.

Now for the real meat: Alluring Voice. For those unaware Alluring Voice is a new Fairy type sound move, it has 80BP and a secondary effect of confusing the target if they received a stat boost before getting hit. Which is a great move for Dirge! Fairy coverage lets it hit Dark, Fighting and Dragon types which Dirge sometimes struggled hitting to the point of some people Teching Tera Fairy Tera Blast. Alluring Voice for the most part is a Fairy Tera Blast since nothing is going to boost in front of an Unaware Mon. Except now you don't have to use Tera.

So against which Mons the new move would be relevant:
View attachment 581047 the most obvious one since it was often the reason for Fairy Tera Blast. 248 hp 244 spdef Dirge can always live even a Tera Dark Feiry Wrath. At no SpA investement Alluring Voice without Tera doesn't hit that hard 31,7%-38%, however post Tera or with Torch Song boost you are already threatning a 2HKO on it. Torch Song into Tera Fairy +1 Alluring Voice threatens a KO while completely skipping a Sitrus Berry.

View attachment 581048 another mon that stands out. Dirge really struggled putting a dent in Hydrei as it resists both it's STABs and is immune to Earth Power, Hydrei being a special attacker doesn't fear Burn much. Now with Alluring Voice Dirge threatens a 75% OHKO after Stealth Rock even if Hydrei is behind a substitute. It is a match up that forces a lot of mindgames from both sides since Hydreigon is weak to Alluring Voice but Dirge is weak to Dark Pulse. Both having a Tera that resists the respective move but at the same times makes them weak to another move in Torch Song for Steel Hydrei and Flash Canon for Fairy Dirge.

View attachment 581050 this guy is completely stone walled by Alluring Voice Dirge. Quaqaval is the only mon that is going to boost in front of Dirge since Aqua Step does it. You can try to get around it by pressing Knock into Step but if Dirge Teras it now resists both Knock and CC while being neutral to Aqua Step and confusing you if you press it.

Now it is impossible to tell if Skeledirge even will drop to UU to begin with given how it took a while at first and it's one of the most reliable Unaware Mon and right now OU is an HO and Dragon City. Speaking of which Alluring Voice let's Dirge hit Hydrapple, Raging Bolt, Walking Wake among others there. I find the very fact that Dirge now has access to a reliable Fairy coverage to be exciting and if it does end up hypothetically dropping it would change things for a few mons.
As someone who loved tera fairy blast dirge as a potential cleaner, I can say that this addition is very fun and cool as I no longer need to tera to have a fairy move. I doubt the confusion thing is too relevant considering setting up in dirge's face is uh..... not exactly what you should be doing, but its still a funny addition.
 
I made a similar topic comment in OU but I’m curious to see the effect of Psychic Noise in the tier since it was found to effectively Disable/Taunt stop Draining moves, which ignoring the ban Hands-er could have ramifications for Sinistcha and Tera’d Okidogi (obviously un Tera’d probably isn’t eating the attack part).

I’d be curious if Meowscarada is a problem if it even stays down here usage wise. In both Tiers TA seems to nail the targets you’d aim Play Rough at like Dragons while grabbing Flying types hard
 
Ok I know this would be the 4th time we’ve tried this BUT I think dropping iron hands might not be a horrendous idea at the end of the month. We’re probably getting lando and amoongus along with a load of other potential drops from the dlc like primarina.

The main thing that broke it last time was amoongus and skeledirge rising to ou so the fact that we’re probably gonna get them back and more makes me think it won’t be as bad
 
Now that showdown is live, I may as well put all of my thoughts in one place

Pain Split- :gengar: :rotom-wash: :rotom-heat: :mew: :overqwil: :zoroark-hisui:

Double Edge- :azumarill: :crawdaunt: :infernape: :iron leaves: :kleavor: :salamence: :scizor: :ursaluna: :haxorus: :lycanroc-dusk: :pawmot: :slither wing:

Temper Flare- :salamence: :gyarados:

Whirlpool- :azumarill: :empoleon: :gastrodon: :pelipper: :slowking: :milotic: :quagsire: :slowbro:

Supercell Slam- :iron treads: :ursaluna: :iron thorns: :pawmot:

Triple Axel- :meowscarada: :quaquaval: :weavile: :lilligant-hisui: :mienshao:

Sludge Wave- :gengar:

Scorching Sands- :infernape: :sandy shocks: :volcanion: :mew: :armarouge: :hippowdon: :torkoal:

Future Sight- :hoopa-unbound: :azelf: :gardevoir:

Expanding Force- :indeedee: :hoopa-unbound: :azelf:

Meteor Beam- :jirachi: :mew: :armarouge: :iron jugulis:

Throat Chop- :iron leaves: :weavile: :meowscarada:

Breaking Swipe- :cyclizar: :milotic:

Curse- :scizor:

Psychic Noise- :gengar: :hoopa-unbound: :jirachi: :slowking: :mew: :gardevoir: :munkidori: :slowbro:

Upper hand- :quaquaval: :lilligant-hisui:

Some of these are pretty niche, but compared to last dlc, there are a lot of ok moves instead of a few extremely impactful ones.

:weavile: :quaquaval: :meowscarada:
The three horsemen of the apocalypse, already strong offensive threats getting the incredible triple axel, but I think they might be a bit overhyped. Weavile is the most absurd of the three imo. Axel makes it even more unwallable after an sd, notably having a 15/16 chance to ohko offensive treads after a boost. As for the other two, axel on quaq means losing the utility of knock and getting walled by slowking, which is very annoying. Quaq also gets upper hand for priority, but that means running no coverage or dropping cc. For meow, axel doesn't really hit anything that knock and play rough already beat. The ohko on torn and neutral coverage for geezing are nice, but it's still competing with some solid options and I don't think it pushes it over the edge.

:rotom-wash: :rotom-heat:
The rotoms finally have some form of recovery, even if it's the unreliable pain split. Wash not being deathly afraid of knock is a game changer, and heattom might see a resurgance with pain split on np sets.

:salamence: :gyarados:
Temper flare is an interesting option, but it's hard to justify over eq on mence unless you really hate orthworm. It's useful for gyara to hit grasses without tera, but it means getting stonewalled by waters or dropping sub or taunt for the coverage. That being said, fire coverage could be much more valuable next month if/when we get skarm.

:sandy shocks:
STAB scorching sands on an already threatening pokemon is pretty scary. While there aren't many physical attackers that would pivot into it, the burn chip on sinis and gastro seems valuable. That being said, the drop in immediate power is noticeable, so it's not a strict upgrade.

:azumarill:
Whirlpool is back for the slightly gimmicky perishtrap sets. Compared to last gen, where you could usually lure in the grasses consistently, most players this gen usually force as much damage as possible to prevent belly drum, so there's some potential for interesting plays there. That being said, this set is a gimmick for a reason, and it relies heavily on surprise factor, but maybe it could put in work.

:indeedee: :hoopa-unbound: :munkidori: :gardevoir:
Offensive psychics get some major buffs. Expanding force gives psyspam some new toys to play with, while psychic noise greatly limits defensive checks. These pokemon still have their flaws, but they might see some more usage with these tools

:armarouge: :iron jugulis:
Meteor beam is fun, but idk if it's worth the item slot. Dropping sash or wp on armarouge makes it much easier to prevent it's setup, and jugulis wants booster speed to maximize it's threat potential. There's some potential for fun sets, but idk if ti'll be consistent.

It's still early for me so there's a good chance I missed something, but I'm looking forward to seeing how these moves impact the meta
G-Molt gets pain split too. Other than Rotom that’s the biggest get for that move.
 
Ok I know this would be the 4th time we’ve tried this BUT I think dropping iron hands might not be a horrendous idea at the end of the month. We’re probably getting lando and amoongus along with a load of other potential drops from the dlc like primarina.

The main thing that broke it last time was amoongus and skeledirge rising to ou so the fact that we’re probably gonna get them back and more makes me think it won’t be as bad
it was probably screens who broke iron hands in my opinion
 
Not 100% sure on this, but also didn't hands get the new physical electric move? So now it would have an extra base 100 stab move with no recoil?
I can't really speak to whether Hands does/doesn't belong in whatever meta OU drops to UU, but that's a significant jump from the 75 on Thunderpunch, right?
 

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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Not 100% sure on this, but also didn't hands get the new physical electric move? So now it would have an extra base 100 stab move with no recoil?
I can't really speak to whether Hands does/doesn't belong in whatever meta OU drops to UU, but that's a significant jump from the 75 on Thunderpunch, right?
It would be huge if it just failed into immunities, but considering you lose 50% of your HP if you hit a Ground with it it's not really fitting with Hands's "immortal booster" playstyle too well. Shouldn't really make a huge difference when it comes to its viability I think.
 
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